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Ben Strege  
#1 Posted : Saturday, April 3, 2021 4:05:51 AM(UTC)
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10 years ago today I registered the domain name that eventually became Paddle Planner. To celebrate this occasion, we are releasing a completely redesigned website: https://new.paddleplanner.com.

The new website is in beta, meaning it is still being tested and updated. If you have any problems or suggestions, please contact us.

We are going to run the old website and the new website in parallel for the time being. They use the same data, so doing something like uploading a photo or rating a campsite on one website will show up on the other. You can choose to use whichever website you want (although we really, really like the new one, and we think you will, too). In time we will retire the old site and just use the new one.

I have to give a shout out to Josh Vermast. He contacted me five years ago with ideas on how to make Paddle Planner better. Josh has been instrumental in redesigning the website. At times I think he despaired that I would ever finish. Here we are, though, five years later. Thank you, Josh, for sticking with me.

We hope you enjoy the new website. Here's to 10 years of making trips better. Paddle on!

Sponsor
jvermast  
#2 Posted : Saturday, April 3, 2021 2:11:22 PM(UTC)
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I can't wait for people to try out the new site!
BillConner  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 6:47:11 AM(UTC)
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Congratulations and nice look. I'm experiencing quite a few problems on my android phone. Just not tested and optimized for phone yet? Its the maps especially: can't scroll to map links past second icon and postage stamp size map rather than full screen to start. Haven't found where I can customize maps - basically turn off layers - necessary for campsites and photos on phone for any large overview.

I'll try to do a more thorough review when I can look more and write on another device.
Ben Strege  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 10:06:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post
Congratulations and nice look. I'm experiencing quite a few problems on my android phone. Just not tested and optimized for phone yet? Its the maps especially: can't scroll to map links past second icon and postage stamp size map rather than full screen to start. Haven't found where I can customize maps - basically turn off layers - necessary for campsites and photos on phone for any large overview.

I'll try to do a more thorough review when I can look more and write on another device.

I'm trying to get the phone to work. The old site does not work on phones very well. I thought I had fixed the map size thing last night, but it must not be working for all phones. My phone works pretty well. What phone do you have?

You can turn off layers by going to Settings. If you can't see it on the phone, you should be able to scroll the bar to the right.

Question: When you first see the map, do you see all the buttons (some of them not in the bar beyond the map), or do you have to scroll to see some of them?

BillConner  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 10:15:39 AM(UTC)
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Can't scroll to other buttons. Wish i had a way to take a pic but its the phone. Maybe a selfie and a mirror......
BillConner  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 10:16:40 AM(UTC)
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Puxel 3A xl
BillConner  
#7 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 10:17:37 AM(UTC)
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No way to edit posts here, us there?
BillConner  
#8 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 10:28:46 AM(UTC)
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I see on laptop - I can'tr scroll to anything past "undo" button on phone.

And can't get out of "full screen" on laptop.  Maybe full screen on phone - if I could scroll to it - might solve that.

jvermast  
#9 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 11:11:03 AM(UTC)
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Should be able to just press escape or click the fullscreen button again Bill on your laptop. Works here no problem.

I have the same phone as you and I am able to scroll to get all buttons on my phone. Are you using Chrome browser?
Ben Strege  
#10 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 11:14:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post
No way to edit posts here, us there?

Should be able to edit posts:

jvermast  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 11:18:29 AM(UTC)
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I recorded a quick video, Bill. Give it a look, maybe you were missing something.

https://streamable.com/eowi9t
BillConner  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 11:59:42 AM(UTC)
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Frustrating.  I tried to cut and paste what I saw and it gave me a too many character error and I could not submit.  Where you show multi quote, quptes, etc to 7 buttons I only have 4 on my laptop.  I'd tell you but can't see themn now - but no edit.

 

At bottom of screen it says I cannot a lot of things in this forum - edit, delete, start a topic, etc.  - ll I can do is add a post.  Wish I could show you but pasting makes it too big.

Phone is Chrome.  Definitoey does not scroll.  Shows a little more if I turn sideways but never getting to tools.

jvermast  
#13 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:09:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post

Frustrating.  I tried to cut and paste what I saw and it gave me a too many character error and I could not submit.  Where you show multi quote, quptes, etc to 7 buttons I only have 4 on my laptop.  I'd tell you but can't see themn now - but no edit.

 

At bottom of screen it says I cannot a lot of things in this forum - edit, delete, start a topic, etc.  - ll I can do is add a post.  Wish I could show you but pasting makes it too big.

Phone is Chrome.  Definitoey does not scroll.  Shows a little more if I turn sideways but never getting to tools.

 

If you put your finger on actual toolbar and go left and right it doesn't show more like in my video? It's a horizontal and not a vertical scroll.

BillConner  
#14 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:11:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post
I recorded a quick video, Bill. Give it a look, maybe you were missing something.

https://streamable.com/eowi9t

 

Click all maps and see if you are able to scroll to all of  teh individual map icons.  I cant. 

 

I do see how that little menu bar scrolls separartely.  I may need one of those wands that is smaller than my finger tips to scroll it - very hard for me to select.

BillConner  
#15 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:12:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post

Frustrating.  I tried to cut and paste what I saw and it gave me a too many character error and I could not submit.  Where you show multi quote, quptes, etc to 7 buttons I only have 4 on my laptop.  I'd tell you but can't see themn now - but no edit.

 

At bottom of screen it says I cannot a lot of things in this forum - edit, delete, start a topic, etc.  - ll I can do is add a post.  Wish I could show you but pasting makes it too big.

Phone is Chrome.  Definitoey does not scroll.  Shows a little more if I turn sideways but never getting to tools.

 

If you put your finger on actual toolbar and go left and right it doesn't show more like in my video? It's a horizontal and not a vertical scroll.

 

Yes to tool bar above maps - but does not change all the things I can and can't do.  I cannot post - I can only reply in this forum.  I'm checking others.

BillConner  
#16 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:19:37 PM(UTC)
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in 2021 roll call, different permissions.  multyi-quote, quote, delete, edit, and retweet.  I didn't try them yet.

at lower right - I can do all those things except still cannot create polls.

I recommend unless compelling reasons, that what a member cann and cannot do in a forum should be the same.  Being able to edit a post in one and not another is confusing, for instance.

 

 

Ben Strege  
#17 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:31:53 PM(UTC)
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I fixed the edit issue. You should now be able to edit posts in the announcements forum.

The announcements forum has different access than the rest. I want to be the only one that can make a "website announcement." I did not realize that there were a lot of other restricted things, too.

Ben Strege  
#18 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:33:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post

Click all maps and see if you are able to scroll to all of  teh individual map icons.  I cant. 

I'm working on this one. I realize the All Maps screen is not phone-friendly yet. I thought you were talking about the interactive map, not the all maps screen. I think we are on the same page now.

Edited by user Monday, April 5, 2021 12:36:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ben Strege  
#19 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2021 12:48:52 PM(UTC)
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Fixed the all maps screen. Should be able to see all of them on the phone.

eagle98mn  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 1:12:56 PM(UTC)
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Congratulations on 10 years and thanks for reinvesting in the website Ben! I like the way the icons look, especially on my preferred National Topo Map background.

2 quick questions:
1. I set my new default map to National Topo but it returns me to ArcGIS Satellite with Labels. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?
2. Is there a way to turn off the default setting that shows the number of rods for every portage? I like the map to be less cluttered but I don't see a way to turn this off like I can with user photos.

Thanks!
BillConner  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 1:38:49 PM(UTC)
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I concur with eagle on the portage lengths - which they would be hidden like campsite data unless hovered over.

Are map settings - like which map - individualized by which map, pp vs new pp, and platform (phone vs laptop)?  anyway I can set my default to be same everywhere?

eagle98mn  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:28:11 PM(UTC)
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Regarding phones, on iOS 14.4.2 iPhone 8, I can see the menu above the map. I have to scroll right to see other options, which is fine. I can’t select any of the options though. So no full screen, adjusting settings, etc.

This isn’t a complaint since I usually use PP more on my computer. Just feedback after the new rollout. :)
Ben Strege  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 9:13:48 PM(UTC)
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Thanks. I have been trying to get it to work on phones. It is working on Android, so I will need to test out an iPhone.
Ben Strege  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 9:16:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eagle98mn Go to Quoted Post
Congratulations on 10 years and thanks for reinvesting in the website Ben! I like the way the icons look, especially on my preferred National Topo Map background.

2 quick questions:
1. I set my new default map to National Topo but it returns me to ArcGIS Satellite with Labels. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?
2. Is there a way to turn off the default setting that shows the number of rods for every portage? I like the map to be less cluttered but I don't see a way to turn this off like I can with user photos.

Thanks!


1. Sounds like a bug
2. I'll add an option.

Ben Strege  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2021 9:38:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillConner Go to Quoted Post
I concur with eagle on the portage lengths - which they would be hidden like campsite data unless hovered over.Are map settings - like which map - individualized by which map, pp vs new pp, and platform (phone vs laptop)? anyway I can set my default to be same everywhere?


Right now it is a cookie on the browser, so it is per device, per map, per site. I have considered storing it in your account so it would follow you no matter the device.
Ben Strege  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2021 2:36:56 PM(UTC)
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I fixed the "default map" bug. It will now save your background correctly. You will have to set your default map again to get it to overwrite the incorrect one.

thanks 1 user thanked Ben Strege for this useful post.
eagle98mn on 4/7/2021(UTC)
eagle98mn  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2021 3:58:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

I fixed the "default map" bug. It will now save your background correctly. You will have to set your default map again to get it to overwrite the incorrect one.

Works as intended now - thanks for the quick fix Ben! For what it is worth, I'd love for these defaults to be account based in the future...since you brought it up as a possibility. :)

Ben Strege  
#28 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2021 12:24:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eagle98mn Go to Quoted Post
Regarding phones, on iOS 14.4.2 iPhone 8, I can see the menu above the map. I have to scroll right to see other options, which is fine. I can’t select any of the options though. So no full screen, adjusting settings, etc.

This isn’t a complaint since I usually use PP more on my computer. Just feedback after the new rollout. :)

I fixed the iPhone bug.

eagle98mn  
#29 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2021 10:31:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: eagle98mn Go to Quoted Post
Regarding phones, on iOS 14.4.2 iPhone 8, I can see the menu above the map. I have to scroll right to see other options, which is fine. I can’t select any of the options though. So no full screen, adjusting settings, etc.

This isn’t a complaint since I usually use PP more on my computer. Just feedback after the new rollout. :)

I fixed the iPhone bug.

Just confirmed this is working now. Of course, now that I can select and open "settings," I discovered I can't scroll up or down to view and change the various settings. Sorry! :)

Ben Strege  
#30 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2021 10:49:16 AM(UTC)
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Scrolling is working fine on my iPhone 6. Can you confirm again that it is not working on your iPhone 8?

eagle98mn  
#31 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2021 3:40:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post
Scrolling is working fine on my iPhone 6. Can you confirm again that it is not working on your iPhone 8?


Confirmed this still isn’t working, but I think I figured out it doesn’t scroll when I’m in full screen. Outside of full screen it works.
Ben Strege  
#32 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2021 8:06:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eagle98mn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post
Scrolling is working fine on my iPhone 6. Can you confirm again that it is not working on your iPhone 8?


Confirmed this still isn’t working, but I think I figured out it doesn’t scroll when I’m in full screen. Outside of full screen it works.

Ahh, that's it. It doesn't work on my iPhone 6 either, but now I have something to work with.

Ben Strege  
#33 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2021 3:22:20 PM(UTC)
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The iPhone bug is fixed. Hopefully my "fix" didn't break anything else :)

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eagle98mn on 4/11/2021(UTC)
eagle98mn  
#34 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2021 3:44:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

The iPhone bug is fixed. Hopefully my "fix" didn't break anything else :)

Looks good to me so far. Thanks!

Guest  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2021 9:47:41 AM(UTC)
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Mighty sharp looking! Couple pages I looked at frequently on the old site were https://www.paddleplanner.com/recentactivity.aspx and https://www.paddleplanne...s/maps/paddlingmap.aspx, but I can't seem to find 'em here. Have these been deprecated or am I just missing them?
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jvermast on 4/13/2021(UTC)
Ben Strege  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2021 9:58:34 AM(UTC)
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They are both still there, just no links yet. I'm going to put a link to the recent activity in the miscellaneous links. Also have something cooking for recent activity on the maps.

I'm surprised you used the paddlingmap one. I don't think I ever posted a link to it. It was more of an internal page that I used to fix routes and check stuff out. 

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AmateurHour on 4/13/2021(UTC)
AmateurHour  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2021 10:03:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

They are both still there, just no links yet. I'm going to put a link to the recent activity in the miscellaneous links. Also have something cooking for recent activity on the maps.

I'm surprised you used the paddlingmap one. I don't think I ever posted a link to it. It was more of an internal page that I used to fix routes and check stuff out. 

Right on (the above was me, apparently neglected to log in ). PaddlingMap is nice for spots that don't have established map links. Got a bunch of WI's NHAL state forest in there as well as some from Scotland's Great Glen Canoe Trail a few years back.

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jvermast on 4/13/2021(UTC)
SummerSkin  
#38 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:28:12 PM(UTC)
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Hi! In general, this looks very nice, sleek, and modern. I do have a few feedback items that I feel can help user experience -- not technical issues, just usability items. For reference, I always use the site on Windows 10 / Edgium / 4K screen.

  • I know this is a holdover from the previous design, but I think it would be helpful to visually distinguish between free and premium feature buttons somehow. I always wind up unintentionally clicking things that throw the "Map enthusiast feature" popup which doesn't necessarily give me any more inclination to purchase an upgrade.
  • The new design defaults to "Build" mode which is a bit disorienting. I was trying to explore the map and all my clicks were inserting route points and throwing the "Upgrade" popup. I couldn't figure out why I was unable to click on campsites or photos anymore. I didn't even realize there was a mode to turn this off until after a while of playing with it. I would recommend that "Explore" mode be the default.
    • Further to this, the word "Route" or "Route build" would be more descriptive to a user than "Build" in my opinion.
  • I find the campsite icons and rating tooltips to be more difficult to see over the old version. 
  • I am not sure what the "Go Home" button does -- it's always active, but in every context that I've clicked it, nothing happened.
  • I am struggling with the new campsite ratings layout. In the previous design, I could see the campsite ratings and photo thumbnails in the left column while still being able to look at the map. Now campsite ratings cover the entire map. Maybe this is better for mobile, but it will take some getting used to.
  • It looks like all campsites are red now...are you no longer tracking unrated / unverified campsites?
  • I thought that the "Error" button was notifying me that there was an error. It wasn't until I clicked it that I realized that it is used to report errors. Perhaps if the label read "Report issue" it would help?
  • The trail color changed to blue. Any particular reason why? I thought this was a creek or stream at first.
  • I am not seeing commercial map info (Fisher, McKenzie, etc.) as with the previous design. Was that intentionally removed?

I know, everyone's a critic. Sorry if this is too much feedback. And there are things I like, for example I love clicking on the lake and seeing its outline, a photo, and fish species in the info panel at the bottom. And the portage length tooltips are money! Thanks for the fresh new look!

eagle98mn  
#39 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2021 1:01:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AmateurHour Go to Quoted Post

PaddlingMap is nice for spots that don't have established map links. Got a bunch of WI's NHAL state forest in there as well as some from Scotland's Great Glen Canoe Trail a few years back.



Hey AH, can you expand on this when you say "got a bunch"? What information did you obtain that I could be considering for other local paddling opportunities? Thanks!

AmateurHour  
#40 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2021 1:23:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eagle98mn Go to Quoted Post

Hey AH, can you expand on this when you say "got a bunch"? What information did you obtain that I could be considering for other local paddling opportunities? Thanks!

For sure, eagle. If you've ever caught John Bates at Canoecopia, I spend a lot of time in his neck of the woods.

Here's some map/photo stuff: https://tinyurl.com/yj6ha9uh (cross reference with https://p.widencdn.net/xc7qyu/NHALCanoeRoutehttps://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/StateForests/nhal/maps)

And I've categorized NHAL site and portage photos here: https://new.paddleplanner.com/photos/albumphotos.aspx?album=336 and https://new.paddleplanner.com/photos/albumphotos.aspx?album=428

Happy to discuss more in depth, though Ben might want us to move it over to the Other Locations forum. :)

Edited by user Wednesday, April 14, 2021 1:43:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: fix links

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eagle98mn on 4/15/2021(UTC)
jvermast  
#41 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2021 6:46:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: SummerSkin Go to Quoted Post

Hi! In general, this looks very nice, sleek, and modern. I do have a few feedback items that I feel can help user experience -- not technical issues, just usability items. For reference, I always use the site on Windows 10 / Edgium / 4K screen.

  • I know this is a holdover from the previous design, but I think it would be helpful to visually distinguish between free and premium feature buttons somehow. I always wind up unintentionally clicking things that throw the "Map enthusiast feature" popup which doesn't necessarily give me any more inclination to purchase an upgrade.
  • The new design defaults to "Build" mode which is a bit disorienting. I was trying to explore the map and all my clicks were inserting route points and throwing the "Upgrade" popup. I couldn't figure out why I was unable to click on campsites or photos anymore. I didn't even realize there was a mode to turn this off until after a while of playing with it. I would recommend that "Explore" mode be the default.
    • Further to this, the word "Route" or "Route build" would be more descriptive to a user than "Build" in my opinion.
  • I find the campsite icons and rating tooltips to be more difficult to see over the old version. 
  • I am not sure what the "Go Home" button does -- it's always active, but in every context that I've clicked it, nothing happened.
  • I am struggling with the new campsite ratings layout. In the previous design, I could see the campsite ratings and photo thumbnails in the left column while still being able to look at the map. Now campsite ratings cover the entire map. Maybe this is better for mobile, but it will take some getting used to.
  • It looks like all campsites are red now...are you no longer tracking unrated / unverified campsites?
  • I thought that the "Error" button was notifying me that there was an error. It wasn't until I clicked it that I realized that it is used to report errors. Perhaps if the label read "Report issue" it would help?
  • The trail color changed to blue. Any particular reason why? I thought this was a creek or stream at first.
  • I am not seeing commercial map info (Fisher, McKenzie, etc.) as with the previous design. Was that intentionally removed?

I know, everyone's a critic. Sorry if this is too much feedback. And there are things I like, for example I love clicking on the lake and seeing its outline, a photo, and fish species in the info panel at the bottom. And the portage length tooltips are money! Thanks for the fresh new look!



Great feedback! Some of these are just growing pains but some are awesome. Let's see what Ben says but I already have some ideas to address a few of these and some are bang on easy fixes, here's my feedback to your feedback.


The new design defaults to "Build" mode which is a bit disorienting. I was trying to explore the map and all my clicks were inserting route points and throwing the "Upgrade" popup. I couldn't figure out why I was unable to click on campsites or photos anymore. I didn't even realize there was a mode to turn this off until after a while of playing with it. I would recommend that "Explore" mode be the default.
Further to this, the word "Route" or "Route build" would be more descriptive to a user than "Build" in my opinion.

Agree re: Route vs Build. Don't agree re: default but we could possibly make this a user option that is saved to your account. 

 

I find the campsite icons and rating tooltips to be more difficult to see over the old version. 

This might just be growing pains. Give it time.

 

I am not sure what the "Go Home" button does -- it's always active, but in every context that I've clicked it, nothing happened.

It routes back to your first point if you have a loop. 

 

I am struggling with the new campsite ratings layout. In the previous design, I could see the campsite ratings and photo thumbnails in the left column while still being able to look at the map. Now campsite ratings cover the entire map. Maybe this is better for mobile, but it will take some getting used to.

Good feedback, I think we could make that popup moveable and save position so you can put it where you want while still browsing the map. Will ask Ben. 

 

It looks like all campsites are red now...are you no longer tracking unrated / unverified campsites?

What map are you using? Unverified should be black, unrated should be a normal red triangle, rated should have a little piece of paper attached to the triangle to show there are ratings. 


 

I thought that the "Error" button was notifying me that there was an error. It wasn't until I clicked it that I realized that it is used to report errors. Perhaps if the label read "Report issue" it would help?

Good feedback....Report Issue wouldn't fit but I'll see if Ben wants to try a different verbiage. Might just be growing pains, again. 

 

The trail color changed to blue. Any particular reason why? I thought this was a creek or stream at first.

Trails are fairly new, we're still playing with the color....it's a big map with alot of layers so we run out of colors quickly. I'll give it another pass. 

I am not seeing commercial map info (Fisher, McKenzie, etc.) as with the previous design. Was that intentionally removed?
https://new.paddleplanner.com/tools/maps.aspx

Edited by user Thursday, April 15, 2021 6:58:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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SummerSkin on 4/17/2021(UTC)
Ben Strege  
#42 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2021 7:21:11 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the feedback! I will add a little bit to what Josh said.

Originally Posted by: SummerSkin Go to Quoted Post

Hi! In general, this looks very nice, sleek, and modern. I do have a few feedback items that I feel can help user experience -- not technical issues, just usability items. For reference, I always use the site on Windows 10 / Edgium / 4K screen.

  • I know this is a holdover from the previous design, but I think it would be helpful to visually distinguish between free and premium feature buttons somehow. I always wind up unintentionally clicking things that throw the "Map enthusiast feature" popup which doesn't necessarily give me any more inclination to purchase an upgrade.
  • It looks like all campsites are red now...are you no longer tracking unrated / unverified campsites?
  • I am struggling with the new campsite ratings layout. In the previous design, I could see the campsite ratings and photo thumbnails in the left column while still being able to look at the map. Now campsite ratings cover the entire map. Maybe this is better for mobile, but it will take some getting used to.
  • I am not seeing commercial map info (Fisher, McKenzie, etc.) as with the previous design. Was that intentionally removed?

1. I will look into doing something with the premium features. Maybe a star in the corner or something that shows it is a map enthusiast feature.

2. Still tracking them, but the legend is out of date. I will be updating the legend soon.

3. I have thought about having the ratings in a moveable popup so you could put it where you want. I just haven't gotten to it yet. FYI - I know this is backwards from "modern design" techniques, but we are designing for desktop first and mobile second, so your feedback is valuable. I believe most people use the site on a computer rather than a phone. 

4. Yes, this is an important feature that I use a lot, too. I just have not found a good way of showing it yet, but it will be added.

Edited by user Thursday, April 15, 2021 7:25:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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SummerSkin on 4/17/2021(UTC)
eagle98mn  
#43 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2021 2:10:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AmateurHour Go to Quoted Post

Happy to discuss more in depth, though Ben might want us to move it over to the Other Locations forum. :)

Good call. I found an old post about this area from you in 2017, I'll copy, paste and reply over there. Thanks!

SummerSkin  
#44 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2021 12:58:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post

The new design defaults to "Build" mode which is a bit disorienting. I was trying to explore the map and all my clicks were inserting route points and throwing the "Upgrade" popup. I couldn't figure out why I was unable to click on campsites or photos anymore. I didn't even realize there was a mode to turn this off until after a while of playing with it. I would recommend that "Explore" mode be the default.
Further to this, the word "Route" or "Route build" would be more descriptive to a user than "Build" in my opinion.

Agree re: Route vs Build. Don't agree re: default but we could possibly make this a user option that is saved to your account. 

Thank you guys, this is a small change that I think will make a big difference!

Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post

I find the campsite icons and rating tooltips to be more difficult to see over the old version. 

This might just be growing pains. Give it time.

Yes, absolutely, in general users hate change 😉 I will say your move away from a color-based system is good for accessibility and colorblind users.

Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post

I am not sure what the "Go Home" button does -- it's always active, but in every context that I've clicked it, nothing happened.

It routes back to your first point if you have a loop. 

Makes sense, thanks for cluing me in.

Originally Posted by: jvermast Go to Quoted Post

It looks like all campsites are red now...are you no longer tracking unrated / unverified campsites?

What map are you using? Unverified should be black, unrated should be a normal red triangle, rated should have a little piece of paper attached to the triangle to show there are ratings. 

You're right -- I just missed it.

SummerSkin  
#45 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2021 1:03:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

1. I will look into doing something with the premium features. Maybe a star in the corner or something that shows it is a map enthusiast feature.

I just have to say, I LOVE what you've done here! Not only can I see what isn't available to me as a free user, this is also a good marketing tool as I can easily see what I'll be getting if when 😉 I upgrade.

Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

3. I have thought about having the ratings in a moveable popup so you could put it where you want. I just haven't gotten to it yet. FYI - I know this is backwards from "modern design" techniques, but we are designing for desktop first and mobile second, so your feedback is valuable. I believe most people use the site on a computer rather than a phone. 

Yes, I always use PaddlePlanner on my desktop because I have the most real estate there, and navigating is just so much easier with a mouse. You know, had I not been used to the previous version's way of doing it, I probably wouldn't have noticed or complained. 😁

Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

4. Yes, this is an important feature that I use a lot, too. I just have not found a good way of showing it yet, but it will be added.

Agreed, awesome, thanks.

Appreciate you guys receiving the feedback and considering it

Edited by user Saturday, April 17, 2021 1:05:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

BillConner  
#46 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2021 1:37:20 PM(UTC)
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"I believe most people use the site on a computer rather than a phone.". You might be right, I maybe in the minority. Usually planning in transit to the wilderness or park, right after making a reservation.
TuscaroraBorealis  
#47 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 1:13:15 PM(UTC)
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Just wanted to say, I love the new website! And am able to enjoy it on my phone as well. Congratulations on 10 years, looking forward to may more.

One concern or, complaint if you will about the maps. Which has been a long standing issue and has nothing to do with the recent upgrade. Many people (myself included) have added random photos at various spots on the map. Fish or wildlife out on the lake, a sunset or, what have you. While I do enjoy looking at beautiful pictures of canoe country, it seems the high percentage of these are just of (relatively speaking) mundane things that detract from navigating and accessing information on the map. And, as time goes on the "clutter" will only be more pronounced. Already, there are a few campsites etc. that are becoming difficult/confusing to access.

Suggesting that perhaps having some sort of a screening process might be a prudent move going forward. For example, there are spots that are off the beaten path, a reasonably far distance from any campsite or portage, that could be of interest to others that indeed could be posted. For example, the Spaulding Lake cabin & mine site. There is no campsite or portage nearby so, allowing a photo or marker for something like that seems reasonable. But, just to have; for example, a shot of a loon opening it's wings while the sun sets in the background - while extraordinarily beautiful - detracts rather than adds to the proper functioning of the map.

I understand, if implemented in such a way, this may cause extra work that doesn't justify doing it and, perhaps others have a totally different view of this? This is, of course, just my opinion and only a suggestion for improvement. Regardless, I will continue to enjoy this site whether this issue is taken under advisement or not.
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Ben Strege on 4/28/2021(UTC)
Ben Strege  
#48 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 1:49:13 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the feedback, TB. The photo clutter has become a big issue, especially in certain areas. I have contemplated a few ways to fix it.

1) A lot of people turn off the photos under settings. This reduces the clutter 100% smiley.

2) In lieu of turning off all photos, I have thought about adding a photo filter based on user or album. For example, you can turn off all photos except your own or a certain album that you want to view. This has benefits beyond decluttering the map, such as being able to view the photos from a particular trip.

2) If a photo is taken from or near a campsite, I like it to be associated with the campsite, which takes it off the map. Not everybody has associated photos with campsites, though, which creates the issue you talked about. Sometimes as I go through the map, I clean up the photos that are near campsites and connect them to the campsites. I still have a lot of work left to do with this, though, and there is always more work being created.

3) On the new map, you may notice that I hid the photos for one more zoom level. In my opinion, this made the map much easier to use when it is zoomed out. You will also notice that the icons change size as you zoom in and out. The smaller photo icons make it easier.

4) Even with all of these changes, there is still a problem with the photo icons cluttering the map. One thing I have thought about is just having one photo icon for an area. For example, if there are multiple photos within a specified circle, just show one icon in the center of that circle. When you click on it, you will be able to scroll through the various photos. This is easier said than done, though, as I have found out while researching it.

5) I personally do not like the "spiderfying" and want to take it out. (Spiderfying is when you click on an icon that is close to several others and they expand into a circle.) It is not just photos that create this problem, but it often is. To change this, I have thought that instead of spiderfying, I can have a list pop up showing the different icons and then selecting from the list. I have also taken spiderfying completely out of the route builder mode. 

6) I have tried doing a sort of screening process in the past for campsite, route, and lake photos (i.e. which photos are shown as part of a route, lake, etc.). It is tough for one person, and I quickly became overwhelmed, so I stopped doing it. I don't think I can screen 17,000 photos with more coming in every day. I will have to rely on some other method to declutter the map.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

eagle98mn  
#49 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 8:45:59 PM(UTC)
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Interesting conversation about the photos. I guess it depends on what the map is intended to be used for. It seems that TB prefers pictures that are useful in route planning, which I would venture to guess includes photos of campsites, portages, points of interest, etc. In general, that is my primary use of Paddle Planner so I am inclined to agree with him. I'm one of the poeple that turns photos off when planning due to clutter. My only fear in turning them off is that I'll miss a point of interest.

That said, I'm a sucker for browsing cool BWCA photos and I enjoy seeing amazing shots of things in the Boundary Waters. I see value in being able to share and see photos of the area we love. 

If your goal becomes to filter the photos a bit, there must be some way for the community to help you in reviewing the photos for their usefulness and accuracy. There would just have to be guidelines on what is being asked of the community. Perhaps you need an option to randomly display photos like some dating app where we can swipe right for photos that are useful in planning a route and swipe left for photos that aren't. Photos that make the cut make the map. Photos that don't make the cut could still be viewable in an album(s). I don't know. I'm making this up as I go. :)

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Ben Strege on 4/28/2021(UTC)
SummerSkin  
#50 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2021 7:16:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

Thoughts? Other ideas?

Yeah, quite a conundrum...how do you sift through the photo "cruft" without diminishing the great value of the really helpful photos? 

You mentioned it's hard for one individual to do alone...I wonder if there's a way to crowdsource it? Maybe add a simple rating system to the photos, then allow the community to rate them? Then you could add a filter to the map: "Only show photos ⭐⭐⭐ and higher" or something along those lines. If a person wanted to see all photos, he'd just set the filter at 0. If he wanted to see only the most useful and helpful photos, set it at 5. Kind of like Reddit's upvote system. I don't know, this might be overkill. Just trying to think out loud of ways that the community could self-police rather than putting it all on the developer.

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Ben Strege on 4/28/2021(UTC)
Ben Strege  
#51 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2021 8:10:31 AM(UTC)
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Thanks, everyone, for your feedback and ideas. I thought a little more about it last night and came up with another idea.

When you click on a lake, all of the photos are loaded in the "lake information." (This is how it currently works, not something new.) Since these are already being listed when you click on a lake, is there a need to show the icons on the map, too? If you want to see a lake's photos, click on the lake. For photos that are not on a lake, an icon will continue to be shown.

The route builder has something similar already. When you calculate a route, the photos along the route are shown in the route information. Again, not something new, but since it is already there, is it necessary to show them on the map, too?

I also thought that some people might like the current system. Next to the photo checkbox in settings, there could be a dropdown box with options. These are the options I came up with so far:

  • Show photos how they are currently shown - every photo gets an icon.
  • How I described it above - lake photos are not shown, but photos not on a lake get an icon
  • Show only one user's photos - useful if you want to see just your photos
  • Show only one album's photos - useful if you want to show the story of a trip

Thoughts on this system? Is it too complicated? Any more options that should be added? Which should be the default?

I have considered a star-rating or upvote system for photos before. While it would be interesting, I don't think it would work for filtering photos on the map. What makes a useful photo? The beautiful picture of the loon at sunset might not be useful for planning, but it would probably get a lot of upvotes. The photo rating system would be nice for some things (i.e. knowing that people liked your photo), but I think not for trying to declutter the map. Although, filtering based on star rating could be one of the options in the dropdown.

Unrelated to the photos, but now that I am thinking about it... I have considered adding a filter for campsites. For example, if you want to quickly see the 3-star and higher campsites, set the filter to 3 stars. All 2-star and below would be grayed out or dimmed. Useful? One concern is that this may put even more pressure on the higher-rated campsites, but in today's internet age, I don't think there is any going back from that. It would most likely be a map enthusiast feature.

On a another slightly unrelated topic (but it was brought up), how can we get the community more involved in Paddle Planner? I know all of you in this conversation have contributed a lot over the years, but what do you think would encourage you and others to participate more? What would you like to see?

Again, thank you for your thoughts and ideas as we try to figure this out.

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TuscaroraBorealis on 4/29/2021(UTC)
SummerSkin  
#52 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2021 10:02:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post

  • Show photos how they are currently shown - every photo gets an icon.
  • How I described it above - lake photos are not shown, but photos not on a lake get an icon
  • Show only one user's photos - useful if you want to see just your photos
  • Show only one album's photos - useful if you want to show the story of a trip

Thoughts on this system? Is it too complicated? Any more options that should be added? Which should be the default?

I think that would work:


  • Show all photos
  • Show only "point of interest" photos (or maybe call them "map item" photos)
  • Show only user's photos...
  • Show only photos from album...

The last two options would have to prompt for the user or album to show.

Originally Posted by: Ben Strege Go to Quoted Post
On a another slightly unrelated topic (but it was brought up), how can we get the community more involved in Paddle Planner? I know all of you in this conversation have contributed a lot over the years, but what do you think would encourage you and others to participate more? What would you like to see?


  • Ask / answer questions for campsites, portages, etc. Perhaps users who have posted photos or campsite reviews would receive a notification that a question has been asked, so they could know to answer.
  • Some sort of "community ranking" system so those who have contributed the most have a higher ranking. Appeals to our vain nature, ha.
  • A way to receive notifications when a new ranking / review / photo is added for a campsite, lake, etc.

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Ben Strege on 4/28/2021(UTC)
TuscaroraBorealis  
#53 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 5:02:05 PM(UTC)
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Its a tricky situation. One of the things I most enjoy is seeing things off the beaten path, which some of the photos on the map highlight. So, turning them all off cuts into that aspect.

So,I guess it's somewhat splitting hairs. As mentioned, its not a deal breaker. Just seeing if those more clever/ ingenious than me had some workable ideas?

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